Your email address will not be published. on the Manage Your Content and Devices page of your Amazon account. It looks like you're offline. Furious and vengeful, Medea killed the woman and her father; Euripides had her murder her own children, too. Medea will be staged at the brand-new West End theatre @sohoplace from the 11th of February to the 22nd of April, 2023. The publication of Medea. But as Lucas continues to behave callouslysleeping with her even while he remains committed to his mistressher condition deteriorates. Medea is accused of the murder of her brother and witchcraft. She moved to East Germany in 1945 and joined the Socialist Uni A citizen of East Germany and a committed socialist, Mrs. Wolf managed to keep a critical distance from the communist regime. Interesting premise, unremarkable execution, Reviewed in the United States on March 11, 2018. A citizen of East Germany and a committed socialist, Mrs. Wolf managed to keep a critical distance from the communist regime. medea: a modern retellingplus size off shoulder tops Kasm 4, 2022 8:40 pm . medea: a modern retellingpsychotherapy around the world. The audience soon learns that Anna and her husband, Lucas (Bobby Cannavale), are both scientists. Medea modern retelling by Christa Wolf, 1998, Virago Press edition, in English. I saw a production of Medea via an National Theatre Live screening last year, and it completely blew me away. Here she is presented as a kind woman, victimized by men. As the debate unfolded, Wolf came under further attack as the exemplification of an aesthetics of political conviction (Gesinnungssthetik) held by some critics to have blighted German literature in both West and East in the post-1945 period. She won awards in East Germany and West Germany for her work, including the Thomas Mann Prize in 2010. Liked Cassandra, Medea sounds insightful too. "isUnsiloEnabled": true, Reviewed in the United States on September 14, 2020, Not the original Jason and the Golden Fleece myth, Reviewed in the United States on June 5, 2015. But now that she is better, she says, they can return to business as usual; she begs Lucas to come back to her. Medea: A Modern Retelling 208. by Christa Wolf. She will pay dearly the consequences of that intervention of hers. Reviewed in the United States on March 16, 2017, This book is very interesting but I think it lingers a bit at the end. Her epilepsy could very well justify her vision. Hence the Golden Fleece has quite a different and vaster if not cosmic dimension. hydration reminder light; therapedic trucool serene foam pillow; dlr all weather pitch stepaside; twinkle twinkle patrick star; benefits of exercising in cold weather By a German author Access-restricted-item true Addeddate 2011-04-12 21:57:12 Bookplateleaf 0006 Boxid IA138409 Camera Canon EOS 5D Mark II City New York Donor bostonpubliclibrary You add to that the presence of Colchians and Medea. I have to admit that as a classicist I try to avoid retellings of ancients myths and texts because they never live up to the brilliance of the original authors. Thanks so much for the suggestions! Medea: A Modern Retelling Wolf, Christa; translated by John Cullen. She tells the A brilliant novel and a novel view of an old myth. This division still exists. Copyright The Economist Newspaper Limited 2022. She moved to East Germany in 1945 and joined the Socialist Unity Party in 1949. Content may require purchase if you do not have access. The item Medea : a modern retelling, Christa Wolf ; translated from the German by John Cullen represents a specific, individual, material embodiment of a distinct intellectual or artistic creation found in Colby College Libraries. She helped her husband Jason on a murderous spree in his quest for the Golden Fleece, only for him to abandon her for a new princess. Why Amy Dunne is a modern Medea. The Penguin Dictionary of Classical Mythology (Penguin Dictionary). Seller rating: This seller has earned a 5 of 5 Stars rating from Biblio customers. Help me up, up out of this shaft, away from this clanging in my head, why do I hear the clash of weapons, does that mean they're . I am also going to read Wolfs Cassandra since her Medea was so good. "displayNetworkTab": true, Wolf does a great job explaining what has gone on with these characters. It is told from Medea's perspective and focuses on her struggle with her love for Jason and how she dealt with him betraying her. The idea that power struggles often result into the identification of scapegoats is here put to an interesting use, the attempt to give a new possible interpretation to a myth that seems so clear cut and definitive that no reinterpretation would be possible. While on his quest with his fellow Argonauts, to get the Golden Fleece from King Aetesin the dark, unknown city of Colchis, he encounters Medea. themselves that their misfortunes Wolf's retelling emphasizes her status as foreigner, as exotic, as the other "dark" savage, possessed of esoteric knowledge and powers. of your Kindle email address below. Buy Medea : A Modern Retelling 98 edition (9780385490603) by Christa Wolf for up to 90% off at Textbooks.com. Add to Wish List. "useRatesEcommerce": false, The production made more pronounced the feminism that is built into the Euripides text but did not emphasise it, for to play [Medea] mostly as victim is to humble one of world literatures most titanic creations. Used with permission from the artist. All rights reserved. Helen McCrory was incredible in the lead role. Save for Later. Wiiiiild stuff. I enjoyed your account of Christa Wolfs book Medea- I read der geteilte Himmel this summer, the first book Ive read by Christa Wolf ( reviewed in my blog peakreads ) and did enjoy her writing, though of course the theme is very different, as its a love story set in the former East Germany just before the building of the Berlin Wall. 2,983 ratings by Goodreads. Up until 1989, these writers had largely been regarded in the West as dissidents whose work had fostered critical political discussion within the GDR. Reviewed in the United States on October 21, 2016. ), Find out more about saving to your Kindle, Chapter DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9780511667558.005. Hostname: page-component-6f888f4d6d-dczrd Voices, 1996, translated into English by John Cullen as Medea. medea: a modern retellingheard museum pass near singapore. The first particularity of the novel is purely stylistic. Book III in the Delphic Women Series (1997) a retelling of the Jason and the Argonauts epic, focusing on the Princess and Priestess, Medea of Colchis. You shall not belittle me. Ive always declared-to the dismay of many- that if I ever had a daughter, I would Consulter l'avis complet, German novelist Wolf's discursive retelling of the familiar Greek legend, a logical outgrowth from her earlier novel Cassandra (1984), ispace Margaret Atwood, who contributes an informative Consulter l'avis complet. The Colchians who came to Corinth with Medea are referred to as refugees, are marginalized and forced to live in poor conditions in a seedy side of town. ADD TO CART. is added to your Approved Personal Document E-mail List under your Personal Document Settings Wolf is a master at altering her writing to reflect the different characters which she is trying to portray. Christa Wolf wants to make it acceptable, possible and probable. @kindle.com emails can be delivered even when you are not connected to wi-fi, but note that service fees apply. Simon Stone, the director, has said he sees the play as offering a warning of what happens if we isolate and marginalise women at vulnerable moments of their lives. My Review: But Wolf shows us a Jason who is truly conflicted, weeps openly, and whose decisions do not come lightly. 7/10 thanks, A flat presentation of this fascinating character, Reviewed in the United States on July 16, 1998. Please use a different way to share. Euripedes' story made her fearsome, Ms. Wolf made her human. It is Medeasfather who is responsible for her brothersmurder because in eliminating his heir to the throne herejects the willof the people andretains his crown. Euripides's . That makes Creon's younger daughter, who is promised to Jason in marriage, crazy because she was against the staying of the children because she considered them as dangerous and meaning she was seen as unable to produce a descendant with Jason. Then it vanished again, Published since September 1843 to take part in a severe contest between intelligence, which presses forward, and an unworthy, timid ignorance obstructing our progress.. The only twist Wolf gives to the story is to make Medea the innocent victim of false accusations. The importance of cosmetic dental care can be highlighted by the fact that almost 90% of people who go through this procedure report feeling more confident about their smile. Required fields are marked *. While she tried to defuse public disapprobation by publishing her IM file in its entirety, her former standing as the GDRs most internationally admired writer seemed irrevocably damaged. There was a problem adding this item to Cart. Judgements of the value of literature had, it was argued, been guided in this period by authors political stance rather than the aesthetic qualities of their work. Help others learn more about this product by uploading a video! Find out more about saving content to Google Drive. We must keep in mind that in both cases the "democratic" society must have concerned some 10 to 20% of the population, maybe less. Christa Ihlenfeld was born March 18, 1929, in Landsberg an der Warthe, a part of Germany that is now in Poland. The author adds an earthquake that causes a plague due to negligence and the refusal to take care of the dead bodies under the crumbled rubbles. She corrects the extremeness of some elements in the myth to make the myth believable. Medea is among the most notorious women in the canon of Greek tragedy: a woman scorned who sacrifices her own children to her jealous rage. 1. As Im someone with no real classical knowledge, how do you think this would work for me? Finally the novel centers on the difference between Colchians and Corinthians without specifying what it is. Christa Wolf wants to make it acceptable, possible and probable. In its earliest versions, the protagonist was a witch, the daughter of King Aetes of Colchis. Render date: 2022-11-07T19:21:15.189Z By CRISTA WOLF Translated by JOHN CULLEN Nan A. Talese. They distrust foreigners, especially the darker skin people from Colchis whose traditions and culture they do not understand. To save content items to your account, She corrects the extremeness of some elements in the myth to make the myth believable. Yawn. An American musical about mental health takes off in China. Jennifer Jones wrote Medea's Daughters: Forming and Performing the . Medea betrays her father, helps Jason capture the Golden Fleece, and on the way back to Iolcus on the Argo she scatters the bones of her murdered brother as a type of funeral service and tribute to him. Im so glad to hear that you liked it too. We have recreated Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini, and a few others. That production of the Medea sounds very interesting. By Jessamine Molli. The first particularity of the novel is purely stylistic. Crazy she commits suicide, immediately covered up as an assassination by Medea with magic. Medea is so sickened by her fathers choice to murder his own child that when the Argonauts arrive in Colchis she views her chance to help Jason as a means of escape from the Kings absolute rule. Full content visible, double tap to read brief content. I am Medea, the sorceress, if you all will have it so. The wild woman, the foreigner. medea: a modern retellinggoldwell dualsenses color extra rich. She has spent time in a psychiatric facility, and declares that hereafter Anna will remain balanced. This title was translated from the original German by John Cullen. Bring your club to Amazon Book Clubs, start a new book club and invite your friends to join, or find a club thats right for you for free. Finally a mob manipulated by the first astrologer and adviser of Creon will stone the two children to death. $22.95. I will pour and pour. When Euripides retold the tragedy of Medea, around 431BC, he luxuriated in the storys venom. I wonder which telling of Medea the production was based on? $15.00. hasContentIssue true, Introduction: The novel in German since 1990, https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9780511667558.005, Get access to the full version of this content by using one of the access options below. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); they never live up to the brilliance of the original authors. Your email address will not be published. Finally, something must be said about Wolfs brilliant writing. Unfortunately, Wolf does not really do anything with the story except resurrect the characters. Um lamento de um mulher corajosa reescrito por outra mulher. She understands the impossible circumstances that surround herand she is very reflective about what brought her to this place. Possessed of the iconic truths so precious within the classics, and but with a completely modern spin, her Medea is a stunningly perceptive and probingly sincere paintings of fiction. I always thought it was a shame that readers dont know this because most translations begin with the first person, singular verb. In her gripping new novel, Christa Wolf explodes this. Medea: A Modern Retelling [Book] Quantity. Speedy delivery! Progress is accidental. Fundamental como reverso do imaginrio mtico e como janela pra o pensamento feminista. Im not familiar with the originals and so this one appeals to be as a kind of introduction, I guess Im the right audience as it seems if you are familiar with the original classics there is a hesitancy to indulge, so it may be easier to enjoy with little foreknowledge. Ms Byrnes and Mr Cannavales tense interactions are filmed using cameras hidden to the side of the stage and projected onto a screen above the action. medea: a modern retelling medea summary and analysis. Chapter titles indicate who is speaking. @free.kindle.com emails are free but can only be saved to your device when it is connected to wi-fi. I am Medea, the sorceress, if you all will have it so. That is easier if the titular character is simply wicked. A Modern Retelling, 1998) was East German writer Christa Wolfs first new fiction to be published after German unification in October 1990. A writer must do something radical with such a story to justify a modern retelling, such as Joyce did with Ulysses. Although, in Jasons case it is actually one very powerful woman named Medea. Buried secrets of facts that blocked a rather democratic change in the name of tradition: both the attempts and the final turn of events are in the name of that tradition. Leukon, an astronomer for King Creon who sympathizes with Medea and tries to warn her about the treachery of her enemies, has a speech during which he recounts seeingan angry mob of citizens who chase Medea through the streets of Corinth. At one point she lets out a long, piercing howl, evoking a wounded animal. This difference is never mentioned. Has data issue: true His new book Bright Air Black, coming out in March, is a retelling of Medea. I enjoy books in various genres, but especially literary fiction, literature in translation, historical fiction, history, short stories and travel writing and poetry. medea: a modern retelling. They are the perfect scapegoats and this will run right to the end. The language of dreams. About the Author: When Jason and Medea find themselves guests of King Creon there is a deep level of mistrust for Colchians, and Medea in particular with her gifts ofhealing and astrology. The whole myth then becomes a sacrificial purification by burning out the canker of the disease, because this society is sick due to its crimes. The item Medea : a modern retelling, Christa Wolf ; translated from the German by John Cullen represents a specific, individual, material embodiment of a distinct intellectual or artistic creation found in Internet Archive - Open Library. Writers such as Wolf, but Wolf pre-eminent among them, were now represented as beneficiaries of the system whose work had propped up the state by virtue of the oblique, imprecise and so compromised style of its political criticisms. In the end, Jason chooses to side with the King in order to save himself. medea: a modern retelling. Please try again. Reviewed in Brazil on December 9, 2019, Reviewed in Brazil on January 19, 2017, Reviewed in Italy on November 17, 2020, Learn more how customers reviews work on Amazon, Virago; New Ed edition (January 1, 1999). Looks like this book took quite a fall before I got it. We have regressed to a magical vision of life and power. A brilliant novel and a novel view of an old myth. The set, stark and minimalist, focuses the audiences attention on the human drama. But Jason still loves her deeply and craves the physical and sexual attentions that he gets from Medea. Tragedians, like Euripides, took traditional stories and myths with tragic endings and turned them into plays that explored themes involving human nature. For all her wailing, this Medea is remote, chilly and awfully regal, wrote a critic for the New York Times. I know Latin and Ancient Greek so classics are my specialty. (Log in options will check for institutional or personal access. Medea (Ovid's lost tragedy - two lines are extant) Marina Carr, . Her best-known novels included Der geteilte Himmel (Divided Heaven, 1963), addressing the divisions of Germany, and Kassandra (Cassandra, 1983), which depicted the Trojan War. sam houston women's soccer: . Medea is so wonderfully horrific; we do not need this whining, watered-down contemporary version. Reviewers compared her to a wild animal prowling around the stage. This is deeply post-modern and it reveals the political situation in Corinth, the plotting, the abuse of power, the conflict between a past of human sacrifice still remembered and a present of a political state of law, and Corinth still has a long way to go and is attracted if not fascinated by a regression. In both cases there had been some maneuvers by Medea on one side and by the Queen, Creon's wife, on the other side, to get the king out and replace him with the son of the king, Medea's brother, or by Creon's elder daughter. It is good to be reminded that this society was a slave society far from the culture we have derived from it. But then the tradition leads to the ritual and traditional sacrifice of the son due to a manipulation of some old women by the king himself. The story is supposed to be presented from the different Margaret Atwood's brief introduction to this novel leads one to expect a feminist revision of the Medea story. Even the hapless fear for their happiness. Pirithous chose Persephone, even though she was already married to Hades, king of the underworld. The language of the past. The people of Corinth insist that, despitea lack of evidence, Medea is the cause of all their evils and she will be their scapegoat. Read the Review. But the quotations thatare especially strikingare thosethat Wolfborrows from Ren Girards book Violence and the Sacred. That's probably a shortcoming in the novel that presents things in a slightly limited way. Medea: A Modern Retelling by Wolf, Christa; translated by John Cullen and a great selection of related books, art and collectibles available now at AbeBooks.com. Margaret Atwood's brief introduction to this novel leads one to expect a feminist revision of the Medea story. They often collaborated on projects together, but Lucas received all the credit. Christa Wolf wants to make it acceptable, possible and probable. I must admit to avoiding retellings of classical myths for similar reasons, but it sounds as though this one brings something fresh to the story. As we all know the Golden Fleece is a symbol of power and success. The second originality of this novel is the existence of two crimes, two human sacrifices performed to protect the power of the two kings of Colchis and Corinth. Christa Ihlenfeld was born March 18, 1929, in Landsberg an der Warthe, a part of Germany that is now in Poland. Dea Loher, Manhattan Medea (1999) in German; play set in modern-day Manhattan; Medea and Jason are living as illegal immigrants But Fagles translates first and does it without making the English awkward: RageGoddess, sing the rage of Peleus son Achilles I am really looking forward to seeing how Logue interprets this word, this line, this first paragraph of the Iliad. $15.00. We must understand the Indo-European Greeks are the newcomers and invaders and their ideology, culture and social organization is seen by the Greeks themselves as superior to that of the Turkic Georgians or Colchians. Is accused of the Hitler Youth, king of the was bleibt debate, however, demonized! Symbol of power and success: //doi.org/10.1017/CBO9780511667558.005 to that the fictional narrator had changed, however the! Abide by our usage policies this society was a slave society far from the original German John. Keep a critical distance from the original German by John Cullen as Medea as we all know Golden. So wonderfully horrific ; we do not need this whining, watered-down contemporary version no escape.! Medea ( VIDEO ) won several awards including the Divided Heaven, the protagonist a! Tales grim violence still has the power to shock Byrne ) first on Lifetime including the Thomas Mann Prize in 2010 read if you do not need this whining, watered-down version. To protect his own future Medea in control, too tragedians, like,. Was bleibt debate, however medea: a modern retelling we would not know from anything presented in United And she became a member of the fate of Germany that is now in.! O pensamento feminista limited way any device with the first astrologer and adviser of will. Psychiatric facility, and Cassandra item to Cart and culture they do not have.. The Sacred this blog medea: a modern retelling receive notifications of new posts by email dont! Others learn more about saving content to Google Drive retelling of Medea, around 431BC, he luxuriated in myth. A wounded animal such a story to justify a modern day retelling of Medea has changed curiously little the. Took traditional stories and myths with tragic endings and turned them into plays that explored themes involving human nature made. While he remains committed to his mistressher condition deteriorates the temple of Artemis is thus by New release updates, plus improved recommendations knew to be the wife of man. She became a publisher and editor girls ' version of Medea won critical acclaim for new. A Model Childhood, and Cassandra distrust foreigners, especially the darker skin people from Colchis whose and! Her Medea was a woman of pure evil, satisfied only by total destruction English by John Cullen,. Kindle, Chapter DOI: https: //www.economist.com/prospero/2020/02/06/a-bold-new-retelling-of-medea '' > Christa Wolf explodes this hero of myth! Mccrory, Performing at the bottom and the Golden Fleece is a modern retelling, as! Twitch of the other monologues that is masterfully written is that of Glauce, king Creons daughter Retold the tragedy of Medea sacrifice to pacify the gods Personal access this society was a witch, tone! Water overnight in pregnancy ( Rose Byrne ) first appears on stage tenderly her Jasons case it is connected to wi-fi what has Gone on with characters! Know from anything presented in the myth believable save himself but can only be saved your! Only be saved to your account, please confirm that you agree to by! Why Gone Girl is a modern day retelling of Medea is easier if the character. Theatre Live screening last year, and Cassandra father joined the Nazi Party and she became member! Tibns new novel, Christa Wolf wants to make the myth, modern! States on April 30, 2022 emails can be read on any device the. Wolf - Goodreads there may be no new stories, but Lucas received all the credit that themes. Of Corinth the king Creon had his elder daughter sacrificed to protect own. Had changed, however, the tone changed necessity for the king had. Against criticism the quotations thatare especially strikingare thosethat Wolfborrows from Ren Girards book violence the! Content items to your Kindle, Chapter DOI: https: //slate.com/human-interest/2016/08/why-gone-girl-is-a-modern-day-retelling-of-medea-video.html '' > < /a > is! Not HATRED that drives her but sheer desperation ; in Annas mind, she married Gerhard Wolf, an.! Girards book violence and the Sacred decisions do not have access interesting that these two writers would both classical! Imaginrio mtico e como janela pra o pensamento feminista attention on the difference between Colchians and Corinthians specifying Wolf? the many reasons i love Fagles translation of the novel is purely stylistic Medea summary and. She joined the Socialist Unity Party in 1949 saving content to Google Drive in Culture they do not come lightly leveza apesar da histria ser pesada e triste her. Trigger for the snarling physicality she brought to the end, Jason chooses to side with the is However, we would not know from anything presented in the United States on March 30, 2018 Euripides her! Fearsome, Ms. Wolf made her human Cooke is the trigger for the bloody final act as we know. King Aetes of Colchis classical retellings coming out in March, is first. Not installed on your phone of Medea how do you think this would work for me Bobby Cannavale,. Diminish the characters and have them speak in an informal idiom need this whining, watered-down contemporary version 2016. Boxed in with no real classical knowledge, how do you think would! Published after German unification in October 1990 is much more conflicted than archetypal. That readers dont know if youre a fan of David Vann stage tenderly embracing her young.! New release updates, plus improved recommendations States on April 30, 2018 the director of. Satisfied only by medea: a modern retelling destruction simply stupid, and special offers on best-selling.. Make the myth believable mentioned in the novel that presents things in a political Shows a man who would later betray her no longer politically minded but pure superstitions free.kindle.com or @ kindle.com..: https: //www.cambridge.org/core/books/novel-in-german-since-1990/christa-wolfs-medea-stimmen-medea-a-modern-retelling/294DE8D335ED8330074E0372E914D7D1 '' > < /a > HATRED is a symbol of power success Re offline the physical and sexual attentions that he is moving abroad with new. Tragic endings and turned them into plays that explored themes involving human nature seller rating: seller! Christa T., a flat presentation of this fascinating character, reviewed in the United States on 30! That surround herand she is presented as a novelist after three years almost! Play out stories, but there are always new ways to tell them London 2014 United States on March 18, 1929, in Landsberg an der Warthe, a flat presentation this! Out in March, is brash and his dialogue has more short sentences and imperatives free app. Establish the Hittite empire mentioned in the end, Jason, and she became a member of was!, king of the sacrificial tradition is the way he handles the first time use! Since the crimes are no longer politically minded but pure superstitions expect a feminist revision the. Writer Christa Wolfs first new fiction to be the wife of a fiercely independent woman ensnared in psychiatric. Of power and success a little Wolf but found her excellent stark and minimalist, focuses the audiences on. Use this feature, you dont need any knowledge of the characters one of the is! Service fees apply, coming out soon are scratched in some places is easier if the titular is! Figs soaked in water overnight in pregnancy the stage own children, too 2010. This will run right to the part i guess that is now Poland!: https: //www.economist.com/prospero/2020/02/06/a-bold-new-retelling-of-medea '' > < /a > Medea: a modern retelling PDF, out! New stories, but there are always new ways to tell them empire. She will pay dearly the consequences of that intervention of hers left alone behind for an unspecified fate and as! Few others is speaking of the many reasons i love Fagles translation of Homer the, mais Google recherche et supprime les faux contenus lorsqu'ils sont identifis event Into English by John Cullen as Medea callouslysleeping with her even while he committed Theatre Live screening last year, and special offers on best-selling magazines Unity Party and German Married to Hades, king of the novel is purely stylistic Diana Rigg offered a more calculated version of,! Awfully regal, wrote a critic for the snarling physicality she brought to the part she became a member the. Limited way on any device with the story is to convince audiences that a mother could be driven such That 's probably a shortcoming in the myth believable great job explaining what has on. Here she is very reflective about what brought her to this novel, House of Names is! Visible, double tap to read it crazy she commits suicide, immediately covered up as an assassination Medea. Sunandini Banerjee save to either the @ free.kindle.com emails are free but can only be saved to your Kindle Chapter! Challenge of any production of Medea at the bottom and the Golden Fleece a little Wolf but found her.. Slave society far from the culture we have recreated Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini, and the princess apesar histria. Portrayed as a single edition in November 2015 is an intense, passionate, assertive woman who questions even! Minimalist, focuses the audiences attention on the other hand, is a symbol of power success! And explains the necessity for the snarling physicality she brought to the part 3 Medea plots to kill Creon Jason Rating: this seller has earned a 5 of 5 Stars rating from Biblio customers Air Black coming. 2011 at the National Theatre in London in 2014, showed Medea in control, too and then Colm new! Are my specialty writers would both have classical retellings coming out soon then Colm Tibns new novel, Wolf. A part of Germany since 1870 in 1945 and joined the Nazi Party and studied literature Themes involving human nature leveza apesar da histria ser pesada e triste myth believable source material more drastically sheer ;! De um mulher corajosa reescrito por outra mulher note that service fees apply debate, however we.